The Next Workplace Revolution

0:00:13 William Moyers
Hello and welcome to Let's Talk, our podcast series produced by Hazelden Betty Ford for you, our viewers and listeners. I'm your host, William C. Moyers, joined today by my colleague, Bob Poznanovich. Our topic is Wellbeing and Wellness in the Workplace. Welcome, Bob!

0:00:34 Bob Poznanovich
Thanks, William, nice to be here.

0:00:35 William Moyers
Thanks for being here with us today. Tell us just a little bit before we dive into the subject about how you got to Hazelden. 

0:00:41 Bob Poznanovich
Well it was in 1995 after a run using cocaine. In the 80s and 90s when cocaine wasn't supposed to be addictive and became addictive all of a sudden. [chuckles] Yeah, it was after I lost a big job in a Fortune 200 company. That I knew I needed help and ended up doing my research and Hazelden was the place to go. And in February of 1995, I entered treatment. And it'll be 28 years here in a few weeks and I've been sober and clean ever since.

0:01:15 William Moyers
Wonderful. And then how did you actually end up becoming an employee of Hazelden?

0:01:18 Bob Poznanovich
Yeah that's an interesting story. I was a very active alum and volunteer, and then I went back into the business world. And took the company public and I realized that, you know, selling things that didn't matter wasn't important to me anymore. 

0:01:35 William Moyers
Yeah.

0:01:36 Bob Poznanovich
And I realized that, you know, my family and my employer and I made a lot of mistakes when I was struggling. And I had opened up a business that was in the Behavioral Health space that helped families and organizations deal with addiction and substance use. And after I sold that company, then there was an opportunity to come and join Hazelden—

0:01:53 William Moyers
Mmm.

0:01:54 Bob Poznanovich
[grins] And I said I never wanna work at Hazelden. [Moyers chuckles] I said, you know, I volunteer here, I'm an author, I'm an active alum—

0:02:00 William Moyers
A donor.

0:02:01 Bob Poznanovich
—Donor, and I'm like this is—the last thing I wanna do is end up having a career here, too. [Moyers laughs] So, the former CEO asked at least if I would help on a consulting basis. And now that's fourteen years later. [Moyers laughs] And I'm still here. I said I would never work for Hazelden, so, here, never say never—I said no to being an alcoholic and a drug addict, so. [Both chuckle]

0:02:16 William Moyers
Well, and we're glad that we're here because you did really bring in a critical perspective to our mission which is all around engagement of the business community. Let's talk about Hazelden Betty Ford and what we're doing these days in the business community.

0:02:29 Bob Poznanovich
Yeah. So, for my own personal story, I found out after I got fired—and I was an Executive of a Fortune 200 company. I had a billion dollars' worth of responsibility. I found out that my company had 50 meetings about me but never meeting with me until the day they fired me. And I found that out years later when I met our HR Vice President. At a conference. And he goes, 'Oh Bob, I'm glad I heard you were doing well et cetera,' he goes, 'We didn't know what to do with you.' You know, in retrospect, if they would have talked to me, just once, and said, 'We're concerned about you,' I would've ran and got help. Because so much of what I was was who I am, right?

0:03:04 William Moyers
Sure. Sure.

0:03:04 Bob Poznanovich
So, because they didn't know what to do, I didn't know what to do, and everything got worse. And I ended up getting worse and worse. So, you know, for many years, when I got into my own space, and my own business, you know, the goal was to work with corporations to address the problem that they have. And we didn't get a lot of traction. In fact, you may even remember twenty years ago or whatever it was, you put on an event in New York City trying to make addiction America's business.

0:03:28 William Moyers
Yes.

0:03:29 Bob Poznanovich
But we never got a lot of traction, even though it was really an important topic.

0:03:31 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:03:33 Bob Poznanovich
And I think part of the reason is denial. I think part of the reason has been how do organizations look at substance use in the workplace. I think another, maybe the biggest reason, is stigma—

0:03:45 William Moyers
Mmm.

0:03:45 Bob Poznanovich
—That as an employer I don't wanna admit I have employees who could be struggling with substance use. And as an employee, I can't take the chance to say that I'm not okay. 

0:03:53 William Moyers
Yes.

0:03:54 Bob Poznanovich
Because of fear of retribution. You know, our research at Hazelden would say that I'm so afraid of retribution that I won't even ask for what my benefits are, let alone ask for help.

0:04:04 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:04:06 Bob Poznanovich
But I think the tide is changing and now is the time. 

0:04:09 William Moyers
Why is the tide changing?

0:04:11 Bob Poznanovich
I think well two things happened that really changed the dynamics in the workplace. One was the opiate epidemic. 

0:04:17 William Moyers
Mmm.

0:04:18 Bob Poznanovich
Where it was hard to deny when you had people literally dying on the floors in the workplace, whether it be in the factory or in the office—

0:04:27 William Moyers
Mmm. Mmm-hmm.

0:04:27 Bob Poznanovich
—Who were using prescription opiates or, you know, heroin, more frequently than they ever did in the past.

0:04:35 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:04:36 Bob Poznanovich
And then the consequences were there were overdoses happening in a place they didn't happen before. So that was one that people saw it, you know, very graphically in their workplace. Number two is as people got addicted to opiates, they ended up either in the hospital, in the emergency room of the hospital, or in treatment. And when many went to treatment they didn't know how to navigate healthcare and they ended up at maybe the wrong place that was really costly. So all of a sudden, organizations who didn't think they had a problem before were now starting to see the actual result of somebody, you know, overdosing right there, or all of a sudden healthcare costs were going up. That started it. The second thing that made it worse is COVID. You know, which is probably—many think it's the most psychologically trying event that we'll ever have in our history.

0:05:20 William Moyers
Mmm.

0:05:20 Bob Poznanovich
For sure up to this point.

0:05:21 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:05:22 Bob Poznanovich
That there are more people struggling with mental health and substance use than ever before. Last year we had more people die of alcohol than ever before. So I think the workplace recognizes that 20 percent of the people today that are working are struggling. And the people coming back to work aren't like they were when they left work. They're in much worse condition. And what do you do? You've got a workforce that is struggling—20 percent of the people have admitted that they're drinking during work. And actually on Zoom and WebEx phone calls. That the workplace has to remain competitive, right?

0:05:56 William Moyers
Mmm.

0:05:57 Bob Poznanovich
So we have to be able to recruit people. We've got to manage healthcare costs, and we've got to create a healthy environment, and now Behavioral Health is rising as an important factor in achieving all that in the workplace. So I think they can no longer kind of just say, 'We don't have a problem.'

0:06:11 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:06:12 Bob Poznanovich
Where we're noticing is more people recognize they have a problem, now they're trying to figure out what's the right thing to do.    

0:06:16 William Moyers
And before we go to that, what's the right thing to do, there is a popular misperception in this country that most people who struggle with substance use issues or mental health are not employed, but in fact they are employed.

0:06:28 Bob Poznanovich
Right. You know, when I would talk to organizations prior to you know, recently, over the last twentysomething years, they would say, 'We don't have alcoholics and drug addicts at work,' and I would say, 'How would you know?' 

0:06:37 William Moyers
Right. [chuckles]

0:06:37 Bob Poznanovich
And they would say well they're not accessing treatment or they're not accessing EAP services. And I'd say, 'All that just tells me is they're not accessing treatment, they're not accessing EAP, so it doesn't tell me you don't have alcoholics and addicts working here—'

0:06:45 William Moyers
Right. [nods, grins]

0:06:47 Bob Poznanovich
—Or that you don't have employees whose family members are struggling.

0:06:50 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm. So let's talk about what specifically you're leading as an initiative here at Hazelden Betty Ford around this Wellbeing Portal. 

0:06:58 Bob Poznanovich
Right. So, you know, the workplace, when you talk about—William going back to what you said, that the misconception is that people struggling with drugs and alcohol don't work here. The fact is that's just wrong. You know. 70 percent of the illicit drug users and 80 percent of the alcoholics are employed full- or part-time. 

0:07:15 William Moyers
Mmm.

0:07:16 Bob Poznanovich
So the problem does exist in the workplace, right? And the workplace actually covers more healthcare costs than the government does. 

0:07:21 William Moyers
Interesting.

0:07:22 Bob Poznanovich
You know, and employees actually will trust the workplace more—

0:07:25 William Moyers
Ah.

0:07:27 Bob Poznanovich
—For health recommendations than other people. So when you say, you know, kind of you know what's the problem, what's the opportunity, I think we see that the workplace could change behavior. I mean look at smoking. Years ago you got to work, you got at your desk accessories—a phone, a pen, et cetera, and an ashtray. Right?

0:07:42 William Moyers
[laughs] Yes.

0:07:43 Bob Poznanovich
Now you can't smoke on campus and some places like the Cleveland Clinic, you can't even smoke—you can't even be hired if you're a nicotine user. 

0:07:50 William Moyers
Mmm. Mmm-hmm.

0:07:50 Bob Poznanovich
So we've changed behavior.

0:07:51 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:07:51 Bob Poznanovich
So I think what we're seeing is organizations now are looking at how do they expand services in wellness to include behavioral health and substance use and mental health. And the first thing that we started to do was for organizations to recognize the need to help their employees navigate good care. 

0:08:12 William Moyers
Mmm.

0:08:13 Bob Poznanovich
And it started with many of the payers. In fact, almost all of the payers have identified their top providers as quality in outcomes and created a Center of Excellence strategy. 

0:08:23 William Moyers
And hold on, when you say payers, you mean the insurance companies? Yes, okay.

0:08:25 Bob Poznanovich
Insurance companies, right. Insurance companies and managed care organizations. And even some EAPs have created—and recognize their top performers.

0:08:33 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:08:34 Bob Poznanovich
As in quality and patient satisfaction and outcomes. So that they could, you know, provide some guidance to their members or employers' employees on where the right place would be to go if they were looking for help. 

0:08:46 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:08:47 Bob Poznanovich
That in itself though isn't enough with the size of the problem. Because we have a lot of people in the workplace today who are also at risk. Meaning they're not necessarily right now using at what would be dependent levels, clinically. But there's a problem. If they don't get help and it continues to proceed, they'll get worse. You know, the other challenge was how do we get more people engaged and more people comfortable about looking into resources?

0:09:17 William Moyers
Yes.

0:09:18 Bob Poznanovich
And having worked with some employers, having worked with some EAPs, having worked with some insurance companies, having looked at it in our own patient navigation, we recognized that there was an opportunity to add resources to all of the existing infrastructures that happened in the workplace around wellbeing and wellness. That specifically talked to substance use and mental health.

0:09:39 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:09:40 Bob Poznanovich
That gave individuals who might be looking for resources for themselves, or for resources for others, an opportunity to anonymously come to a website. Answer some questions—

0:09:52 William Moyers
Mmm. [nods]

0:09:53 Bob Poznanovich 
—Get some interaction. Get some feedback. And get some—using some of our intellectual properties—have kind of a discussion tree say, 'Based upon what shared with us, we're gonna recommend some solutions for you.' Many of which would interface to the existing benefit plan of an employer.

0:10:06 William Moyers
Hmm. Yes. Interesting, yeah.

0:10:11 Bob Poznanovich
So we built something called the Workplace Wellbeing Portal. And it's something that we spent over a year developing with over a million dollars in funds donated by donors—

0:10:19 William Moyers
Ah!

0:10:20 Bob Poznanovich
—Who understood the challenge and the opportunity and the need to help the workplaces. And what we're doing now is providing an on-ramp, if you will, for employees, dependents, the organization itself, to allow them to expand their benefit package. So that employees get a portal that allows them to get educated. Get information. It allows them to take some screening questions to understand where they're at. It allows them to take that information from screening or make some recommendations on care. And it helps them navigate the entire health system—

0:10:55 William Moyers
Mmm.

0:10:55 Bob Poznanovich
—And hopefully get them into action. And it's geared towards three types of people. Those who think they might have a problem, those who know they have a problem and need help, and then another really important area is those who had a problem and took care of it. And wanna remain in recovery and want resources.

0:11:10 William Moyers
Interesting. Yes. [smiles]

0:11:12 Bob Poznanovich
And I think that also has a really potentially important role in changing the culture of the workplace. And that is creating recovery communities within the workplace.

0:11:22 William Moyers
Huh!

0:11:23 Bob Poznanovich
You know, the Department of Labor just came out with an initiative called Recovery Ready Workplaces. Where they're raising the visibility, they've provided a kit, and they're trying to encourage workplaces, you know, to recruit, retain, employ, and support employees who are in recovery. Because it's the right thing to do. But it's also the right thing to do from a business and a competitive perspective.

0:11:42 William Moyers
Yes.

0:11:43 Bob Poznanovich
That, you know, in speaking to the Department of Labor and the Drug Czar's office, they indicate that one of the reasons that we have such great unemployment right now, is that there are so many people struggling with substance use that they're not healthy enough to work.

0:11:55 William Moyers
Ah.

0:11:56 Bob Poznanovich
So being able to retain and recruit employees who are in recovery becomes a competitive advantage as well as the right thing to do from an organizational wellness and healthcare cost perspective. So, we're hoping that through this portal, through these resources, through the tools that we could provide organizations, that not only did they help the people that might need help—

0:12:15 William Moyers
Yes.

0:12:15 Bob Poznanovich
—But we bring more resources to those who already got help. And that we take away some of the stigma that allows me to, you know, to put a face on recovery as a term used for years. [smiles]

0:12:24 William Moyers
Yes. Yes. And how do you assure people who access this Workplace Wellbeing Portal that it is in fact confidential or anonymous?

0:12:34 Bob Poznanovich
Yeah. Well we built in our system in a way that we're not looking to monetize the engagement.

0:12:42 William Moyers
Hmm.

0:12:42 Bob Poznanovich
So if you look at a lot of websites say that you know you go to—first thing they want is your email address, right? Or something so they can contact you and monetize you. We didn't implement any of that. You don't have to give us any information about you until you're ready.

0:12:55 William Moyers
Hmm.

0:12:56 Bob Poznanovich
Or not at all.

0:12:58 William Moyers
Right, right. Or not at all. Yes.

0:12:58 Bob Poznanovich
And the workplaces could implement it just that simply. 

0:13:01 William Moyers
Uh-huh.

0:13:02 Bob Poznanovich
That, you know, we could add it onto our website. So that it is not part of the company's website. 

0:13:08 William Moyers
Uh-huh.

0:13:08 Bob Poznanovich
An employee comes and they get a message that pops up that says, 'This is anonymous.'

0:13:12 William Moyers
Uh-huh.

0:13:12 Bob Poznanovich
And it allows them to access the service without fear of retribution. You know, in other cases some of the organizations are doing that and they're also embedding it into their wellbeing portal too—

0:13:21 William Moyers
I see.

0:13:21 Bob Poznanovich
So that it's consistent with the other resources. So I think multiple points of entry is one of the keys to the success, you know, let the employees kinda walk in whatever door they wanna walk in.

0:13:30 William Moyers
Yes, yes.

0:13:31 Bob Poznanovich
—To get the information. You know, and then within that portal, we're looking at expanding the services too. So we talked about that, at-risk users, you know?

0:13:39 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:13:40 Bob Poznanovich
20 percent of the people right now drinking who are at risk levels. Meaning that if there's not some form of intervention, they'll most likely get worse, not better, right?

0:13:46 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm.

0:13:48 Bob Poznanovich
So we're putting online self-help tools that are self-guided, self-administered, that could be done confidentially—

0:13:54 William Moyers
Mmm.

0:13:55 Bob Poznanovich
—That allow people to take some online courses that are evidence-based that will help them reduce their drinking. And there's a lot of studies that show that some of these interventions work and will reduce an at-risk drinker to not-at-risk levels. 

0:14:08 William Moyers
Yeah.

0:14:08 Bob Poznanovich
Which would be the ultimate goal, right? Is the early intervention and prevention.

0:14:11 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm.

0:14:12 Bob Poznanovich
So thinking about that continuum that we're trying to bring is those who might be at risk, we wanna get them help early. Those who know they need help we wanna get them help now, to the right place. And those who got help, we wanna keep them in recovery in that maintenance and continue to encourage their involvement. And you know hopefully that we take our tools and our brand and our resources and our ability to create communities and help, you know, organizations create their own communities. You know, years ago, one of the organizations that used to do that was United Auto Workers. You know that really embraced Twelve Step recovery and used to let people have AA meetings right on their assembly floor. 

0:14:44 William Moyers
Huh. [smiles]

0:14:45 Bob Poznanovich
So hopefully, we could get to that point in America—

0:14:46 William Moyers
Yes. [smiles]

0:14:47 Bob Poznanovich
—That we're not afraid to be in recovery.

0:14:49 William Moyers
Is the Workplace Wellbeing Portal, is it accessible if you're on the business side? In other words if you're an HR Director or an EAP or the CEO, can you go in through the portal too?

0:15:00 Bob Poznanovich
Yep. So we're working with a lot of different entry points—

0:15:04 William Moyers
Okay.

0:15:05 Bob Poznanovich
—To get the products into the marketplace. Or accessible to the employees. So one is we're working directly with some of the employers. You know, who are adding it onto their set of services. We're also working with insurance companies. Who are taking the product and the content. You know, we've got 75 years of content. [Moyers chuckles] We're really known for having a tremendous amount of resources for individuals and for families, for substance use, for mental health, for those struggling as well as those in recovery.

0:15:32 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:15:32 Bob Poznanovich
So we've really packaged the best of the best. And put this into an easy-to-navigate format. But we're finding other usages for it. So one is the website that we created itself, the portal. But other organizations are taking the content as well—

0:15:45 William Moyers
Ahh.

0:15:45 Bob Poznanovich
—And putting it into their systems. Or their infrastructure. 

0:15:50 William Moyers
Okay.

0:15:50 Bob Poznanovich
So, we're going directly to employers. We're taking our content via insurers and managed care organizations. We're also partnering with benefit design and consultants—

0:16:01 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:16:02 Bob Poznanovich
—Who are putting together solutions for workforces. And really try to look at a comprehensive strategy for the workplace to say how am I going to address substance use, how am I going to address mental health—

0:16:10 William Moyers
Yes.

0:16:10 Bob Poznanovich
It's a combination of access to resources, you know, digital resources. It's an access to good care, and it's putting recovery strategies in place for those who get care, to try to expand those relationships.

0:16:21 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm. We've only got about two, three minutes left, Bob, and as it relates to resources, talk a little bit about the reality that insurance, private health insurance, does for the most part cover substance use treatment.

0:16:37 Bob Poznanovich
Yeah. I think you know because of the work that you and advocacy professionals across the country have done, you know, with parity, is we have really great coverage now in the U.S. for healthcare. It's one of the ten essential diseases that need to be covered, you know, by healthcare.

0:16:51 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:16:53 Bob Poznanovich
So, 97 percent of the people that access us today have in-network benefits.

0:16:57 William Moyers
Amazing.

0:16:57 Bob Poznanovich
Provided by the employer. You know which is important—that's why the employers have to be involved in this. 

0:17:01 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm.

0:17:04 Bob Poznanovich
The problem exists, right, you do have people struggling, you have dependents that are struggling, you're already covering the cost. 

0:17:08 William Moyers
Mmm. Mmm-hmm.

0:17:09 Bob Poznanovich
And this is hard disease because without giving the resources to employees, what we're saying is that the same sick mind that got me into this problem [Moyers chuckles] has to someday be healthy enough to get me out of it. 

0:17:20 William Moyers
Yes.

0:17:21 Bob Poznanovich
Then I gotta figure out what I need, and then I gotta navigate healthcare.

0:17:23 William Moyers
Yes. [chuckles]

0:17:24 Bob Poznanovich
If they could make this easier considering the fact that the workplace covers most of the cost, they've got most of the problem, and people depend on them—

0:17:31 William Moyers
Yeah.

0:17:32 Bob Poznanovich
—I think it's a tremendous opportunity to do the right thing, right, and make the organization more competitive. At the same time—which impacts the bottom line—but the real bottom line is that they'll ultimately save some lives. 

0:17:42 William Moyers
So Bob you talked about people who might be struggling with the substance use or mental health issue, certainly finding these resources, but what about the family?

0:17:51 Bob Poznanovich
Yeah. Great question. So, this targets, this Wellbeing Portal, not only people who are struggling themselves, but we intentionally also provided a lot of the resources for families. Because, you know, part of the population that's struggling is not only the employee but their dependents. And part of the costs an organization has to do is, you know, for the total healthcare of a family.

0:18:10 William Moyers
Yes.

0:18:11 Bob Poznanovich
So we put the same resources that we put for individuals who are struggling in place for the families. So families have their own educational materials, families have their own screening tool—

0:18:22 William Moyers
Ah!

0:18:22 Bob Poznanovich
—To kind of help them identify and see how of a mesh they are how much they're struggling as well. And then we give families paths to resources themselves. 

0:18:30 William Moyers
Yeah.

0:18:30 Bob Poznanovich
'Cause they might have a family member who's not maybe ready to have the conversation with a loved one, but is impacted by that one—

0:18:34 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:18:35 Bob Poznanovich
So we give them resources on how to take care of themselves, how to have the conversation, how to get the unhealthy family system, you know, into the healthy family system. And then, if their loved one's in recovery, we provide resources for the family so that they can be in recovery themselves. So we really address both the family members as well as the individuals who are struggling through the portal. 

0:18:55 William Moyers
Two questions before we go. So where do people find this Workplace Wellbeing Portal?

0:19:03 Bob Poznanovich
You mean those who are interested in potentially using it with us?

0:19:04 William Moyers
Yes.

0:19:05 Bob Poznanovich
They would get a hold of us.

0:19:06 William Moyers
Okay.

0:19:07 Bob Poznanovich
In our Business Development. We have a team of professionals on my team—

0:19:10 William Moyers
Uh-huh.

0:19:11 Bob Poznanovich
Who are working with employers—

0:19:11 William Moyers
Okay. Mmm-hmm.

0:19:12 Bob Poznanovich
—And the groups that work with employers to provide custom solutions for them. 

0:19:16 William Moyers
Okay.

0:19:16 Bob Poznanovich
—It could be deployed really quickly, it's not a big investment. At all. It doesn't require heavy lifting from a technology perspective, it's just more of a decision that says we wanna take this on and make this part of our wellbeing strategy.

0:19:28 William Moyers
Yes, okay. And we know, last question, that on these Let's Talk podcasts that we've been doing for years, that often times we get—or inevitably—we get viewers who are watching them or listening to them because they or a loved one has an immediate acute problem. What is your message to somebody who is employed, has had a successful career, but is struggling with a substance use problem, or has a family member that's struggling with a substance use problem, and is worried about losing their momentum of their careers or losing all that opportunity that they've created?

0:20:02 Bob Poznanovich
Yeah, I think, you know, the reality is what most people know about addiction is wrong. 

0:20:06 William Moyers
Huh. [smiles]

0:20:07 Bob Poznanovich
You know, so many of the myths have kept a lot of us sick, right?

0:20:11 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:20:11 Bob Poznanovich
Which, you know, the one that stands out the most is that you can't do anything to help an alcoholic until they hit bottom. 

0:20:17 William Moyers
Right. Yeah.

0:20:18 Bob Poznanovich
Think about that. In no other disease in the world would we say somebody has to get worse before they get better.

0:20:22 William Moyers
Yes.

0:20:23 Bob Poznanovich
In fact it's actually cruel. 

0:20:24 William Moyers
Right. Right, right.

0:20:25 Bob Poznanovich
Right? So I think the important thing for everybody to remember is that this is a disease of the brain. And that nothing could be gained by waiting, it's only gonna get worse. 

0:20:34 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:20:34 Bob Poznanovich
But you're not alone. I mean, here's the reality of what we're dealing with. Think about this. Take out the word addiction. This is a disease that impacts 1 out of 8 of us. That two-thirds of the country are impacted somehow. 

0:20:49 William Moyers
Mmm.

0:20:50 Bob Poznanovich
It costs billions and billions of dollars to society. Yet, only 1 in 10 people are struggling to get help. If you didn't have the word alcohol and drug addiction, society would be enraged—

0:21:01 William Moyers
Yes.

0:21:03 Bob Poznanovich
—Over those kinds of numbers. Right?

0:21:04 William Moyers
Great point.

0:21:05 Bob Poznanovich
So it's stigma. [smiles] Right? Somehow we look at this different, and it isn't. 

0:21:09 William Moyers
Yes.

0:21:09 Bob Poznanovich
Even when we're sick, we deny we're sick, then when we realize we're sick we often don't want care.

0:21:12 William Moyers
Yeah.

0:21:13 Bob Poznanovich
So we've just gotta change that. It's, you know, maybe we're responsible for taking that first drink or that first drug, right, but we never decided to ruin our lives. 

0:21:20 William Moyers
Mmm-hmm.

0:21:21 Bob Poznanovich
Right? Some of us just get—the DNA is right, you know, things just happen just right. Then instead of going left, we go right, and end up—we ended up being addicted.

0:21:28 William Moyers
Yes.

0:21:30 Bob Poznanovich
So it's about recognizing today that, you know, we need care but—and asking for help's a little bit hard, but I think if you've got that right environment in the workplace, where they welcome you, I think if we could get to the point that we're okay with you not being okay—

0:21:44 William Moyers
Right.

0:21:45 Bob Poznanovich
—Or I'm okay with not being okay. That we could move forward. And again, when you look at the reality of this, two-thirds of the country today understands what recovery is and what substance use is. They're impacted somehow. So we're not as isolated as we really think we are—

0:21:59 William Moyers
Right.

0:21:59 Bob Poznanovich
—We're not as different as we really think we are.

0:22:00 William Moyers
Yeah.

0:22:01 Bob Poznanovich
And just take—now the next step is for the workplace to embrace this disease like they have other diseases. Other chronic diseases. And provide the same resources. You know, if I was in the workplace and I needed to have dialysis, I'm sure they'd give me time off. [Moyers chuckles] If I was in the workplace and needed to go to an AA meeting, would they?

0:22:17 William Moyers
Mmm. [nods, smiles]

0:22:18 Bob Poznanovich
But it's a little bit of a culture shift. 

0:22:18 William Moyers
Yeah. Yeah.

0:22:19 Bob Poznanovich
To allow us to come out equal with other chronic diseases that, you know, are gonna affect the quality of my life and the quality of those lives around me. 

0:22:28 William Moyers
Bob Poznanovich, I've known you for a long, long time, even before you and I were employees of Hazelden Betty Ford. And you've gotten to be good, man, there's a future in you. [Both chuckle] And if you ever wanna be a podcast host, let me know! Because I think our Executive Producer Lisa Stangl and I can make it happen for you. [chuckles]

0:22:46 Bob Poznanovich
We'll let that—we'll keep that for you and Lisa but thank you for having me again, William. [grins, chuckles] I appreciate it.

0:22:49 William Moyers
Thanks a lot, Bob! [turns to camera] And thanks to all of you for joining us today for another edition of Let's Talk. Make sure you tune in again to talk more about the issues that matter to Hazelden Betty Ford and matter to you, too. Take good care. [smiles]